Do you believe?

[TomOfSweden]

Returning to the original question Tom, albeit rephrased. Do I believe in the supernatural – the answer is yes. How I understand the supernatural is via my faith.

Why do I believe in the supernatural – because I have seen too many things which can have no physical or psychological explanation. I agree that does not mean that in the future there may not be one found, I am sure turning on a light bulb and the room flooding with light would have been seen as supernatural at one time, and clearly it is not.

I have been told about a number of miracles – are these the proof you refer to? Are they miracles or is there a physical or psychological explanation for them. My personal reaction is always to doubt. Some I am quite sure are a hopeful figment of someone’s imagination, or sometimes an attention seeking behaviour. Some fall into a grey area, the person concerned is emotionally stable etc etc but there could be a non-supernatural explanation. There is also a third category, cases were for example someone had scientifically evidenced form of an illness, following healing those signs of illness have gone. It could be a miracle, or it be something we don’t yet understand. It could even be a combination.

Once you open up your mind to the possible presence of a supernatural element to our world there is more and more which needs an alternative explanation. This I guess is where the ‘faith’ bit comes in. I have considered what I have seen and what I have experienced and decided that there is a clear balance of evidence saying that there is a supernatural element to our world. I cannot prove it, but neither can it currently be disproved.

I hope this makes sense to somebody because you lost me. Not being able to disprove the existance of god or anything supernatural is not proof of anything. We can similarly not disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster either, and nobody takes them seriously. Nobody. Their case is just as good as any other supernatural belief.

If some scientific proof were to come along which proved that I was wrong, then I would be stupid to ignore it. But that is proof, not a plausible theory.

The Bible has flaws. Science proves it. Creationism did not take place as described in the Bible. But most Christians only believe in selected parts anyway so never mind that.

You mention a scientist and a theologian discussing evolution, and say you would prefer to listen to the scientist. I suspect that shows your natural preference. I would like to listen to people who have learnt both disciplines, and of those who have, there are people who will argue both ways.

I agree with you that theologians who choose to ignore science are going to come up with a limited to answer to many of life’s questions, but I would not wish to view things only through a scientific perspective. To me they are complimentary disciplines, not opposing.

I didn't say I'd "prefer" to listen to the scientist. What I said was that the scientist can massacre all theories floated by the theologan because he doesn't have a chance. He doesn't have the training to meet the scientists arguments. So priests just don't. Instead they use logical head-games that shouldn't make sense to anybody, (and probably don't because I doubt religious people really listen). It's so extremly frustrating to see it happen, time and time again. The priests arguments can always be killed off one by one, if picked apart by a pro. And scientists are the pro's here.

Theology as a subject that deals more about psychology and sociology than the laws of nature. It's not really their branch to discuss it as a subject. They can only say what the various religious texts say on it. They don't have the training to meet arguments found outside of the box. It's both cruel to the theologan and to the scientist. It's like having a a mathematitian race against Carl Lewis at his peak. Even if the mathematitian will beat Carl Lewis at maths he'll still lose the race.

Try aplying the scientific method to Christianity. Any of the supernatural tenets will run into trouble at once. Most major religions and Science is today very much in oposition to each other.