Gay marriage issue

[TG]

And you too, John56!
TomOfSweden, I think John56 has hit the nail on the head. There are demagogues in this country that have hijacked a number of issues for their own self enrichment, Gay Marriage being one.

They put together specious arguments to justify their cause, but their real message is an emotional one appealing to their base. It pats them on the back for being an "elect" special group who knows all the answers to everything, and which entitles them to tell other people what to do. Certainly an appealing message.

This isn't our problem alone. The world is getting very crowded with this type of personality. Paraphrasing George Bernard Shaw, "Religion is the one area where a person does not need talent, intelligence, experience or education in order to claim to be an expert." I have an aunt who's a Christian Science Practitioner, which is a senior position in that faith responsible for instructing sich people on how to treat their illnesses holisticaly. She hasn't read the Bible once, nor studied any holistic medicines ourside her faith.
But she's an expert on the subject, who sadly sakes her head at my misplaced faith in doctors.

In an increasing complex world requiring more and more knowledge, they offer simple solutions which assures their followers they are superior to others, comparative educations not with standing, and they are entitled to tell other people what to do.

I'm glad this thread got started, Tom. These religious groups are a problem that needs to be addressed. And they are behind a lot more issues than just gay marriage.
TG

[John56{vg}]

Jeanne, *slaps your lovely behind*, I think youa re being very additive to this discussion. Don't you dare step out, lol.

Tom,

Jerry Falwell endowed a "University." This University has a law school. IT is rated as one of the worst Law schoolsin the nation. But Bush has appointed and the Gonzales Justicve Department has hired an inordinate amount of their "lawyers" (The quotes are mine, lol) to Justice. And it is not just Falwell, It is Pat Robertson (a wacko Nutjob) that has a TV show called "The 700 Club" with a "NEWS" program that gives Conservative and Christian slanted news as if it came from a reputable source.

(Actually I see Jeannes point, somewhat. I have gotten off the Homsexuality thread.) But to bring it back around to your point Tom. Falwell and Robertson and their ilk have created something called the Homosexual Agenda. They feel that there is a conspiracy to spread teh Homosexual lifestyle throughout the nation (of course, complete Bullshit). But they scare their base of people and these people support them.

I hope I am making sense.

John

[tessa]

Gay marriage. What a lovely topic to bring up at the conservative right-wing dinner party. Evil ol' me.

Basically, it hasn't been supported by the United States government for the reason everyone has given. Organized r-e-l-i-g-i-o-n. They have power and they use it to influence where and whenever they can because they believe what they believe...strongly at that. Politicians are afraid of losing votes, so they keep it from being legalized.

Now there are some big business types that wouldn't be so happy to see gay marriages recognized as legit. They would then have to include all those new spouses and children onto the benefits roster and that would cost them a fortune in additional premiums. Literally, multi's of millions of dollars. There's that to consider too. They wouldn't dare come out and say anything directly as it would hurt their bottom line. But as the religious ones do, the big business types let it be known which way they want their politicians to vote. But it's money they care about, not morals.

Good question, Tom.

~sits with jeanne and checks out Tom's ass~ Yep, it is mighty fine.

tessa

[jeanne]

Yes, the business angle. Good call, tessa! One of the disadvantages of our medical system is the fact that insurance is so costly. Companies that used to pay for full family coverage now pay half or a third of the cost - the rest comes out of our paychecks. And companies that didn't pay for employee/family insurance fully, now pay even less. It costs employers tens of thousands of dollars a year per employee with a family for full medical coverage. So, keeping the definition of "family" as narrow as possible is to their advantage. "Cost effective" you know. The result is an unholy alliance between big business and fundamentalist religion, explaining why the Republicans find themselves in bed with people like Falwell and Robertson.

[TomOfSweden]

Now there are some big business types that wouldn't be so happy to see gay marriages recognized as legit. They would then have to include all those new spouses and children onto the benefits roster and that would cost them a fortune in additional premiums. Literally, multi's of millions of dollars.

I doubt there's enough fags to motivate big business being against it. And don't forget the gays in the big business, they want their rights to. I think this is one more of the arguments that don't hold up under closer scrutiny.

But the consensus by the Americans on the forum seems to be that neocons who have far too much power in USA, and the gay rights issue isn't about gays at all, but about a larger idea of basing US law on the Bible, (ie making it a theocracy). Did I get it right?

Here's a fun clip of fundamental Christians interupting a Hindu prayer in the senate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9To30Hz7A

And here a hilarious article about neocon loons on a boat trip.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle2766040.ece

~sits with jeanne and checks out Tom's ass~ Yep, it is mighty fine.

OOOO, look that that. *points* sexual harrasment. You all saw it, didn't you? help help. I'm being repressed.

[tessa]

I doubt there's enough fags to motivate big business being against it. And don't forget the gays in the big business, they want their rights to. I think this is one more of the arguments that don't hold up under closer scrutiny.

Oh, Tom. You are underestimating the power the all mighty dollar has on business in America. From the Kaiser Family Foundation, here's a stat for you. "Annual premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance for 2006 average $4,242 for single coverage and $11,480 for family coverage. Employees contribute an average of $627 annually for single coverage and $2,973 annually for family coverage, with significant variation around these averages. Legalize gay marriage, have all the gay employees sign up for their now rightful benefits, and a company of 5000 employees is looking at an estimated additional 2.5 million dollars in insurance costs. (and I used a very conservative 5% homosexual population to figure that cost...go with 10% as some studies suggest, and that's almost 5 million dollars!)

If a company can keep even one of those dollars for themselves as opposed to using it on the workforce, they will. Period. And you think that's an argument that won't hold up?? Money matters. And if keeping gay marriage from being legal will save big business big money, you'd better believe that they will do whatever it takes to keep it status quo where gays are concerned.

OOOO, look that that. *points* sexual harrasment. You all saw it, didn't you? help help. I'm being repressed.

We aren't repressing you in any way. We are encouraging your ass in every way possible! And what jeanne said, "goodwill" and all.

[TomOfSweden]

Oh, Tom. You are underestimating the power the all mighty dollar has on business in America. From the Kaiser Family Foundation, here's a stat for you. "Annual premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance for 2006 average $4,242 for single coverage and $11,480 for family coverage. Employees contribute an average of $627 annually for single coverage and $2,973 annually for family coverage, with significant variation around these averages. Legalize gay marriage, have all the gay employees sign up for their now rightful benefits, and a company of 5000 employees is looking at an estimated additional 2.5 million dollars in insurance costs. (and I used a very conservative 5% homosexual population to figure that cost...go with 10% as some studies suggest, and that's almost 5 million dollars!)

If a company can keep even one of those dollars for themselves as opposed to using it on the workforce, they will. Period. And you think that's an argument that won't hold up?? Money matters. And if keeping gay marriage from being legal will save big business big money, you'd better believe that they will do whatever it takes to keep it status quo where gays are concerned.

I think you're wrong. My point is that it is blatant oppression of a minority. Compare it to Blacks. If blacks only where able to make couples but not get married, just because we don't want them to access the same benefits as everybody else. I don't believe it's about the money at all. Anybody bringing up the "power of the all mighty dollar", would get stoned to death in a situation like that. It's only about the repression, not money. US companies have a state sanctioned right to pick on Gays. That's why they aren't paying out money. It's not the other way around.

We aren't repressing you in any way. We are encouraging your ass in every way possible! And what jeanne said, "goodwill" and all.

I'm just kidding. Feel free to ogle.

[tessa]

It's only about the repression, not money.

It's about repression AND money. And I'm not wrong.

I'm just kidding. Feel free to ogle.

Like we needed your permission.