Animal Rights?

[Flaming_Redhead]

Do you believe that animals have or should have rights? If so, what would those rights include?

No, I don't believe animals have any rights whatsoever nor do I believe they should. I believe that when God created us, He gave us dominion over all animals.

"God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Genesis 1:28

"Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." Genesis 9:1-3

However, along with the dominion, we were given responsibility. I have no problem with eating meat, wearing leather (or even fur if I could afford it), medical testing, hunting, fishing, entertainment, etc. I have a problem with people who can torture an animal to death by putting it in a microwave, pouring gasoline on it and setting it on fire, starving it, etc. Most serial killers begin with cruelty to animals before moving on to bigger and better prey, so I'm all for those people being kept away from the rest of us. *nods a lot*

"If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it." Exodus 23:5

"A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel." Proverbs 12:10

[TomOfSweden]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]No, I don't believe animals have any rights whatsoever nor do I believe they should. I believe that when God created us, He gave us dominion over all animals.

But what reason do you have to believe that the animals are Christian? You can't just force your religion on them based on...yeah...exactly what do you base this on? How is this not just what you want?

It sounds a lot like you're greedy, (like me) but don't like to reconcile that fact, and therefore hide behind an arbitrary religious text. Isn't that so?

[Thorne]

Originally Posted by Voodoo_Child View Post
No, I don't believe animals have any rights whatsoever nor do I believe they should. I believe that when God created us, He gave us dominion over all animals.
But what reason do you have to believe that the animals are Christian? You can't just force your religion on them based on...yeah...exactly what do you base this on? How is this not just what you want?

I'm not sure I understand how you make the connection between the quoting of a religious text with the concept of animals being Christian. All I see is the use of the bible to justify our use of animals, whether for food or clothing or even medical testing. It has nothing to do with the possible religious leanings of your cat!

Like Redhead, I don't have a problem with the use of animals for these things. Nothing better than a nice thick slice of cow, or a juicy pig thigh. Want to shoot a Bambi for its meat? Go right ahead! I don't particularly care for venison, but if you enjoy it, have a ball. I don't even have a problem with those people who enjoy eating dog or cat, though I would be hesitant to try them. We each have our own tastes.

But, also like Redhead, I draw the line at wanton cruelty for its own sake, the sadistic and malicious torture of animals for no other reason than torture.

Medical testing, done properly, is not torture, though you could argue that it is certainly torturous for the animals. Most researchers are aware of the pain they cause, and will minimize it when they can. But if you can save even one human life with animal testing, how can you protest it? Are the lives of laboratory animals, most of which have been specifically bred and raised for that purpose, more valuable than the lives of people? I don't think so!

Sure, many of the tests which at one time were performed on live animals are now able to be done virtually, mainly because of all of the data derived from live animal testing in the past. But eventually you have to test your products on living animals. It's the only way to be sure. Unless, of course, there are some volunteers out there?

[Kevin100]

Medical testing, done properly, is not torture, though you could argue that it is certainly torturous for the animals

I am not sure I understand this.
Torture is not torturous?

Kevin

[Thorne]

Medical testing, done properly, is not torture, though you could argue that it is certainly torturous for the animals

I am not sure I understand this.
Torture is not torturous?

Kevin

I suppose it depends on your definition of torture. Going to the dentist is painful, or torturous, for us, but it is not torture. The pain is inflicted for a specific, ultimately beneficial reason, and, of course, it's pretty much voluntary.

By the same token, though the animals don't volunteer for it, the ultimate aim of medical research is for the benefit of humanity, ideally. Therefore, scientists can offset the infliction of pain to their test animals because of the potential gains for people. And even then the reputable ones will, if at all possible without screwing up the test results, sedate the animals. And any pain inflicted is not done for sadistic or gratuitous reasons, which is what I would consider torture.

Now, using animals for cosmetic testing, to my mind, is much less justifiable. I couldn't justify in my mind that those animals have to undergo such pain just to make me look better or smell better or feel better about myself. (And believe me, in my case that would require a LOT of pain!)

The other thing you have to remember, though I don't know how much bearing it has, is that the vast majority of these test animals are living only because they are test animals. Is this right? I don't know. Again, I think you have to balance the needs of humanity with the means for meeting those needs.

[Thorne]

Accidental duplication removed.

[Kevin100]

Not sure if I am following your reasoning here but...
You seem to be saying that a human does, or does not, have the right to torture an animal? You say it is cruel. But the question is... Does a human have the right to buy a dog in order to torture it? Does a human further have the right to torture a dog as he or she pleases for as long as he or she pleases?
Interestingly... Under most legal systems people do not have that right,

Kevin

[Shwenn]

and respectfully when someone apologizes its rather rude to just slap thier face all over again,

Meena didn't apologize to me. She made that "ridiculous" dig at me. Then she explianed why she didn't owe me an apology, but not to me. She made it clear she was addressing others in the comment.

there are a lot of enviromentalists and animal rights activists giving those areas of study and consern a bad name with over zealous and illegal practices, much akin to the anti-abortionist movements, its allways sad to see such violence used in the name of causes that by their own offical dogmas shouldnt condon such measures

Stipulated. I don't see how that excuses what Meena wrote. I think she owes me an apology. Trust me, I'm not holding my breath.

I abhor those people you speak of. Nothing bothers me more than when people who have the same opinion as me resort to tactics I find despicable or horrific.

On the other hand, I think it helps my cause when the people who disagree with me are petty and childish.

If a person I agree with is behaving that way, I distance myself. If I try to support them, I will end up looking very feeble and insecure about my own stance. I will look so uncertain that I feel the need to boster my numbers with any radome, fractious stranger, since my argument alone is not enough.

Ask yourself, are you the same? Do you really agree with Meena's behavior or are you not taking issue with it because she is on your side? Am I really the one here most in need of a lecture on how to comport yourself respectfully?

Think about it.