Lost Data

[steelish]

Throughout the Old Testament God smites those who fail to worship or praise him, and even some of those who do.

No doubt. However, the bible was not written by God himself but by people.

I once had a debate with my father over God and faith. He is of the mind that ONLY Christians go to heaven. I argued that my belief is God does not turn away someone simply because they are ignorant of a specific faith. How can he condemn someone who is born as a Buddhist? Someone who only knows one way of life? However, I do believe that people intrinsically know right from wrong and/or evil from good and choose to live life one way or another.

Do I think God punishes a little boy for being born a Jihad and who has killed by the time he is 10? That is not something I know the answer to. Maybe he shows the child the truth of goodness and gives him a chance, maybe he doesn't. All I know is that only God can pass judgement, and based upon the 10 commandments and the knowledge that they are rules that are designed to keep us good and pure (as good and pure as a human can be), then I find it difficult to believe that God cannot see true goodness in the heart of one who stands before him in judgement.

As for denouncing, I have no wish to do that to those who believe in gods of any kind. I will denounce those who try to force others, through legislation or threat of bodily harm or any other means, to abide by their beliefs.

I also abhor those who knowingly do bad things and think that by "confessing their sins" they are completely cleansed and can go to heaven. I'm sorry, but I truly believe God can see right through that tactic.

[Thorne]

No doubt. However, the bible was not written by God himself but by people.

I agree, but again, our point of view is in marked contradiction to many who believe that the bible is the actual Word of God, and woe unto those who would disagree!

All I know is that only God can pass judgement, and based upon the 10 commandments and the knowledge that they are rules that are designed to keep us good and pure (as good and pure as a human can be), then I find it difficult to believe that God cannot see true goodness in the heart of one who stands before him in judgement.

But didn't we get the ten commandments from the bible? If so, then by your own words, they were written by men, and not by God.

The truth is that people can and do behave properly even without a belief in God or gods. It has been shown that morality is a survival mechanism for people, allowing large groups to live together more or less smoothly. There's no reason to believe that people are only good because of God. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that those areas of the US, at least, which are most religious also have higher crime rates than areas which are less religious.

I also abhor those who knowingly do bad things and think that by "confessing their sins" they are completely cleansed and can go to heaven. I'm sorry, but I truly believe God can see right through that tactic.

If there were an omniscient God then yes, I would expect he could see through that. But Yahweh, of the Bible, doesn't seem to care how his worshippers come to him, only that they do.

[MMI]

All I know is that only God can pass judgement, and based upon the 10 commandments and the knowledge that they are rules that are designed to keep us good and pure (as good and pure as a human can be), then I find it difficult to believe that God cannot see true goodness in the heart of one who stands before him in judgement.



I also abhor those who knowingly do bad things and think that by "confessing their sins" they are completely cleansed and can go to heaven. I'm sorry, but I truly believe God can see right through that tactic.

In passing judgement, God is passing judgement on Himself. If a man does evil, it's because God gave him the freedom to do so, but insufficient discrimination to avoid doing it.

[DuncanONeil]

No doubt. However, the bible was not written by God himself but by people.

I once had a debate with my father over God and faith. He is of the mind that ONLY Christians go to heaven. I argued that my belief is God does not turn away someone simply because they are ignorant of a specific faith. How can he condemn someone who is born as a Buddhist? Someone who only knows one way of life? However, I do believe that people intrinsically know right from wrong and/or evil from good and choose to live life one way or another.

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, spent 13 years in a Catholic school. And I was taught that a faithful following of YOUR religion is sufficient for God's mercy.
In addition, at a time when it was common belief, that I could not enter another Church. As part of my religion class we were to go out in the community and interview priests and ministers of other faiths and report the interview to the rest of the class. The result, I can only speak for my understanding, was a revelation that in the basic tenets of all religions wer precisely the same.

[DuncanONeil]

I must say that your version of God is much more tolerant than the traditional version. In fact, it's completely at odds with the biblical version of Yahweh/Jehovah. Throughout the Old Testament God smites those who fail to worship or praise him, and even some of those who do.

As for denouncing, I have no wish to do that to those who believe in gods of any kind. I will denounce those who try to force others, through legislation or threat of bodily harm or any other means, to abide by their beliefs.

Were Yahweh were truly a venial God Abraham's son would not have survived!

[Thorne]

Were Yahweh were truly a venial God Abraham's son would not have survived!

I think you meant "venal", as in corrupt?

And if he were not venal, he wouldn't condemn a sinner's innocent children. (2 Samuel 12:13-18)

[DuncanONeil]

God does not REQUIRE praise, laudation, or worship. People are the ones who believe that. My belief is that God requires each one of us to live as purely good as we can with our thoughts and actions towards our fellow man. God wants us to emulate his goodness as much as each of us are capable of doing. I do not believe we need to attend church and throw money in the coffers to be believers. God is all around us and within us. Some people simply choose to denounce him, rather than have a quiet and unabiding faith in him.

Should one be accepting of Jesus of Nazareth. There are two Great Commandments. All either of those requires is "love" and nothing else!

[denuseri]

Well you all have fun making fun in this thread of everyone who believes in anything that you dont. Peace.

[MMI]

Well you all have fun making fun in this thread of everyone who believes in anything that you dont. Peace.

There's no need to be so sensitive, den. People here are derided for holding all sorts of opinions. People with socialist sympathies and people who are pure capitalists; supporters of Bush, Obama fans; gun abolitionists, people who believe in the right to own firerms; Catholics, Protestants, Jews ... if we can all take it, then so can God.

Otherwise, he'd be better off not reading this thread at all.

[Thorne]

Well you all have fun making fun in this thread of everyone who believes in anything that you dont. Peace.

I'm not making fun of anyone. It's always been my stance that people can believe what they want to believe, as long as they don't try to force those beliefs upon others.

And anyone here who would like to make fun of my disbelief, they're welcome to do so. Just provide some evidence, that's all I ask.

[DuncanONeil]

I'm not making fun of anyone. It's always been my stance that people can believe what they want to believe, as long as they don't try to force those beliefs upon others.

And anyone here who would like to make fun of my disbelief, they're welcome to do so. Just provide some evidence, that's all I ask.

Making fun does not require evidence. Convincing does!

[Bren122]

The biggest influence, and this is true of anywhere in the world, will be the US. Too much has to go too right for too long for China to propel itself past the US in the timeframes most people envisage. The US will be THE major power for some time to come.

Russia is looking to regain its Soviet former glory, but it is facing a demographic crisis (Islamification), a population crisis and an economic crisis. Further, there is no guarantee and very little hardware to stop China turning much of Siberia into a defacto part of China.

If the Ukraine can gain access to energy from any source other than Russia it may assume a larger role in Europe, but until that time it will rely on the interests Poland, Germany and Russia to maintain their independence. Roughly the size of France and with a similar population it could be the breadbasket of Europe with the right investment.

Poland is the only Eastern European nation likely to challenge for a leadership role in Europe. It has to get past a generation of political, economic and criminal corruption before that will happen.

Spain and Italy are too backward politically to offer the stability required for a European-wide role. No other nation has the size, population or political/diplomatic establishment to come close to Germany, France and Britain.

Britain gains far too much from its roles as No1 US ally and head of the Commonwealth to ever seriously contemplate a full share of Europe. Because it can't/ won't take that full share it must ensure that neither of its rivals gain too much from a position of leadership. It may support common military and foreign policy goals but British Military thinking is very different to France/Germany and European Foreign Policy is much too soft for British interests.

France gains far too much economically from the current arrangements which prop up its inefficient economy and helps its governments to avoid implementing long overdue reforms. Its attempts to form a French version of the Commonwealth or a Mediterranean league are nothing more than attempting to shore up French political influence in the face of continued German economic expansion. The French military desperately needs updated tanks, small arms and artillery, and none of its home made systems comes close to matching German or British equipment but neither can they simply 'buy foreign' so the military keeps falling behind.

Germany's needs would be better met by casting off the old EU and the drain of the Common Agricultural Policy and create a Mitteleuropa. France uses the historical memory of German policies in WW1 and WW2 to remind the rest of Europe of the dangers of allowing a strong Germany go its own way. it also has an imbalance, politically and economically, with the integrated East Germans. But the biggest break on German power is the strength of the Greens and Socialists and their ideological commitment to peace at all costs.

There is no threat now or likely that will ever draw these three away from their separate foreign policy commitments and ideals to form a tripartite government of Europe. Without all three committed, any one can create enough doubt in the smaller nations to stymie any effort at closer integration.

[denuseri]

BTW the consept of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscientient, or even omnibenevolent deity does not preclude or negate free will in anyway whatsoever.

From each creatures personal perspective the theory of consepual awarness of ones fate or destiny if it does exist shouldnt preclude the fact that since you have no foreknowledge or way of precieving your own fate (trapped as we are by the human condition) that speculation on it doesnt rob you of it.

As for the existance of Evil geting in the way of omnibenevolance; I shall refer you to the philosopher St Augustine who wrote so much about it in his work "The City of God".

[Thorne]

BTW the consept of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscientient, or even omnibenevolent deity does not preclude or negate free will in anyway whatsoever.

From each creatures personal perspective the theory of consepual awarness of ones fate or destiny if it does exist shouldnt preclude the fact that since you have no foreknowledge or way of precieving your own fate (trapped as we are by the human condition) that speculation on it doesnt rob you of it.

Semantics! Regardless of one's personal knowledge, if an omniscient being has already foreseen the results of everything, then anything you do will only lead to those results. While you may perceive it as free will, from the perspective of such a being it's predestined.

As for the existance of Evil geting in the way of omnibenevolance; I shall refer you to the philosopher St Augustine who wrote so much about it in his work "The City of God".

Yes, theologians have been wrestling with this problem for centuries, with little or no success. Evil comes from Satan, they say. But God created Satan, and that omniscient God knew that Satan would bring evil to the world, so God knowingly created evil.

From "God: The Failed Hypothesis", by Victor J. Stenger:
"The problem of evil can be formally stated as follows:
1. If God exists, then the attributes of God are consistent with the existence of evil.
2. The attributes of God are not consistent with the existence of evil.
3. Therefore, God does not and cannot exist.

The God in this quote is, of course, the traditional Judeo/Christian/Islamic God as defined in the Old Testament. While this does not say that a god or gods cannot exist, it does refute the existence of God as we've been taught to understand him.

[DuncanONeil]

[QUOTE=Thorne;837746]Yes, theologians have been wrestling with this problem for centuries, with little or no success. Evil comes from Satan, they say. But God created Satan, and that omniscient God knew that Satan would bring evil to the world, so God knowingly created evil.
QUOTE]

As I remember Satan created himself!

[Thorne]

[QUOTE=DuncanONeil;837898]

Yes, theologians have been wrestling with this problem for centuries, with little or no success. Evil comes from Satan, they say. But God created Satan, and that omniscient God knew that Satan would bring evil to the world, so God knowingly created evil.
QUOTE]

As I remember Satan created himself!

If that were true then Satan would be God's equal, able to create something from nothing.

The way I learned it was that Satan, or Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God. But with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil, yet he created him anyway. Therefore, either God created evil, or he is not all knowing, or he is unable to stop what has been preordained. In any of these cases he fails the test for God (Jehovah).

[DuncanONeil]

[QUOTE=Thorne;837911]

If that were true then Satan would be God's equal, able to create something from nothing.

The way I learned it was that Satan, or Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God. But with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil, yet he created him anyway. Therefore, either God created evil, or he is not all knowing, or he is unable to stop what has been preordained. In any of these cases he fails the test for God (Jehovah).

"Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God."
See! As I said Satan created himself.
"with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil," I take it then that you are of the opinion that God must not allow free will? Omniscience is not so much knowledge of will happen. But of all of the courses of results for all decision points.

[denuseri]

Predestination that you are incable of knowing doesnt change the fact that from your perspective: you and you alone decide for yourself what your going to do in any given situation.

The one attempting to argue symatics here isnt me.

It doesnt refute anything whatsoever when you put Stenger up against Augustine and Occum with his razors.

Not all theologians say evil comes from "satan" (which wouldnt matter eaither since god made the devil) and being all powerful the devil must work for him by Stenger's model or not exisit at all, which only really addresess the issue of omnibenevolance.

Which btw isnt one of the criteria of being a surpreme deity persay.

[Thorne]

Predestination that you are incable of knowing doesnt change the fact that from your perspective: you and you alone decide for yourself what your going to do in any given situation.

Let's play a little game. You are my prisoner and I have given you a choice. Press the wrong button and you will die. Press the right button and you will go free. You have no reason to believe I am lying, and have every reason to believe that you may get free. You don't know that both buttons will kill you, so you assume you have a choice, but in reality your fate is sealed.

Just because YOU think there is a choice, or free will, does not make it so. An omniscient God implies that your fate is sealed. Your choices, while perhaps important in your mind, are meaningless.

It doesnt refute anything whatsoever when you put Stenger up against Augustine and Occum with his razors.

Not all theologians say evil comes from "satan" (which wouldnt matter eaither since god made the devil) and being all powerful the devil must work for him by Stenger's model or not exisit at all, which only really addresess the issue of omnibenevolance.

Stenger's arguments are just as valid as Augustine's. Neither has any evidence for his side, although to my mind Stenger has the more logical argument, based upon the attributes of God as defined in the Bible.

Which btw isnt one of the criteria of being a surpreme deity persay.

I don't know about any generic supreme deity, but God, as defined in the Bible, is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent. So he either permits evil things to happen, which means he is not omnibenevolent, or he doesn't know when evil will happen, which means he is not omniscient, or he cannot do anything to contain evil, which means he is not omnipotent. In ANY of these cases he fails the test, a test based on his own purported words, as put down in the Bible.

[steelish]

Let's play a little game. You are my prisoner and I have given you a choice. Press the wrong button and you will die. Press the right button and you will go free. You have no reason to believe I am lying, and have every reason to believe that you may get free. You don't know that both buttons will kill you, so you assume you have a choice, but in reality your fate is sealed.

Just because YOU think there is a choice, or free will, does not make it so. An omniscient God implies that your fate is sealed. Your choices, while perhaps important in your mind, are meaningless.

Ah yes, but the predetermined fate God gives you (if indeed He is omniscient) might be based upon your life up to that moment. How you lived it...how you treated others...how you reacted to situations, etc.

[steelish]

I don't know about any generic supreme deity, but God, as defined in the Bible, is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent. So he either permits evil things to happen, which means he is not omnibenevolent, or he doesn't know when evil will happen, which means he is not omniscient, or he cannot do anything to contain evil, which means he is not omnipotent. In ANY of these cases he fails the test, a test based on his own purported words, as put down in the Bible.

MY theory - and it is JUST a theory of mine - is that God was the meaning of creation, and just as compared to the universe, our lives on earth are just a blink of an eye as far as "time" goes. God created life to allow good and evil to wage against each other, and it is up to each individual to wage their own war against evil. Some lose, others win.

As to predetermined fate; my theory on that is that the decisions we make in life (and the decisions of the people who surround us) lead us to a moment in time where the continuation of our life or our death might occur. I believe we make myriad decisions daily that could easily effect whether we live or die.

Case in point; You might be driving a motorcycle because it is a sunny day and you decided to go for a pleasant drive, but the person driving in the lane beside you decides to fiddle with the radio, or possibly to send a text message. Suddenly, their car swerves into you and you get into a fatal accident. Was your death your fault? Maybe, because you didn't HAVE to get on that motorcycle. The accident surely wasn't your fault, but your death could have been prevented had you made a different decision.

[Thorne]

MY theory - and it is JUST a theory of mine - is that God was the meaning of creation, and just as compared to the universe, our lives on earth are just a blink of an eye as far as "time" goes. God created life to allow good and evil to wage against each other, and it is up to each individual to wage their own war against evil. Some lose, others win.

I can understand this, even accept the possibility of it. But it is NOT Jehovah you are talking about here. The god you hypothesize would not be likely to intervene in human affairs, would not really care whether or not people believed in him, would not be interested in having people worship him. He would have started the universe and let it go.

As to predetermined fate; my theory on that is that the decisions we make in life (and the decisions of the people who surround us) lead us to a moment in time where the continuation of our life or our death might occur. I believe we make myriad decisions daily that could easily effect whether we live or die.

Obviously this statement holds true as far as we can know. We do make decisions every day, and they do affect our own future, however minutely, and the futures of those around us. I have no problem with this.

And again, I am dealing with the traditional definition of the biblical God. As an omniscient being, by definition, he knows the entire path of the universe, and every particle and beam of light, from creation to destruction. Since the bible places him outside of the universe, infinite, he knows everything about everything even before he creates it, again by definition. So regardless of how we may believe our actions are performed by our own free will, those actions were written in the mind of God, if you will, even before the creation of the universe. That is predestination.

Now I don't believe any of this. I don't find any need to hypothesize beings who have no interaction with the universe, beings who do not help or hinder us along our paths. As far as I can tell, such beings have no real meaning in our lives.

[steelish]

I can understand this, even accept the possibility of it. But it is NOT Jehovah you are talking about here. The god you hypothesize would not be likely to intervene in human affairs, would not really care whether or not people believed in him, would not be interested in having people worship him. He would have started the universe and let it go.

Not necessarily. I believe our life on earth is God's test for us.

[denuseri]

Non the less we have the illussion if nothing else of free will, regardless of weather or not God allready knows our choices etc, we still make them for ourselves.

But, some take a much more trancendental approach to the interpetation of these things.

It is also written that God is Love, and that God resides within each and every one of us, yes even you Thorne lol.

We are after all made in his image.

[Thorne]

But, some take a much more trancendental approach to the interpetation of these things.

It is also written that God is Love, and that God resides within each and every one of us, yes even you Thorne lol.

We are after all made in his image.

Everyone is entitled to take whatever approach they wish. That's one of the joys of freedom.

But my points are in reference to the Biblical Jehovah, who is supposedly the author of the Bible, and who is anything BUT love. And thankfully I am absolutely confident that there is no God residing within me. For we are not made in His image: rather, He was made in ours, with all our faults and foibles. And as mankind, through ignorance, created God, so mankind, through education, will eliminate him.

[DuncanONeil]

"(S)o mankind, through education, will eliminate him"
Good luck with that!

Everyone is entitled to take whatever approach they wish. That's one of the joys of freedom.

But my points are in reference to the Biblical Jehovah, who is supposedly the author of the Bible, and who is anything BUT love. And thankfully I am absolutely confident that there is no God residing within me. For we are not made in His image: rather, He was made in ours, with all our faults and foibles. And as mankind, through ignorance, created God, so mankind, through education, will eliminate him.

[Thorne]

"(S)o mankind, through education, will eliminate him"
Good luck with that!

The gods were created by men in an attempt to explain those things which they were ignorant about and unable to control, such as storms, earthquakes, volcanos, and the like. As our understanding of the natural world and the universe at large has grown, the need for having supernatural creatures to explain things has diminished. The advent of the home computer and the internet, bringing unprecedented means of information to virtually everyone everywhere is allowing great strides in understanding our real place in this universe, and the growing desperation of religions trying to maintain their hold on people's minds is allowing people to see those religions for what they really are. I honestly believe that, eventually, the greatest part of mankind (except for a few fanatics and idiots) will toss off the shackles of religion and realize their true potential.

I have faith in us.

[denuseri]

Or one day may find he is real and within us all.

God didnt write anything directly on the pages of a book unless in extension through us of his omnipotence. In which case, everything ever written by the hand of any man, including pornographic stories, is also written by god.

[denuseri]

The existance of Gods or God if you will isnt just some catch all imaginary thing used to explain our surroundings nessesarally, it's also a way of explaining those things we see within our selves sometimes those things that come from ourselves.

Perspective is everything when it comes to understanding something.

Ancient societies and faiths despite being seperated from each other developed many similar views on these things.

The more we discover through science and faith the closer to understanding the actual true nature of the universe and of god we come.

Ancient knowledge isnt nesseasarally popycock just becuase its been maligned by the faithless or those who think only one way exists of looking at things.

[Thorne]

The existance of Gods or God if you will isnt just some catch all imaginary thing used to explain our surroundings nessesarally, it's also a way of explaining those things we see within our selves sometimes those things that come from ourselves.

Perspective is everything when it comes to understanding something.

Ancient societies and faiths despite being seperated from each other developed many similar views on these things.

The more we discover through science and faith the closer to understanding the actual true nature of the universe and of god we come.

Ancient knowledge isnt nesseasarally popycock just becuase its been maligned by the faithless or those who think only one way exists of looking at things.

Ancient knowledge should not be confused with ancient superstitions. Knowledge is gained through experience and education, while superstition is just a way to explain something you cannot, or will not, understand. As you gain understanding the need for such explanations declines. A perfect example is lightning.

Christians always considered lightning to be a sign of God's wrath, inflicted upon sinners for their evil ways. Until Ben Franklin determined the true nature of lightning and, more importantly, developed a defense: the lightning rod.

Church leaders called the lightning rod a tool of the devil, intended to divert God's wrath. Business owners, on the other hand, realized that their buildings weren't getting struck when protected by the rods. When Church leaders realized that the town churches were being struck repeatedly while the town brothels were not they quickly changed their tunes.

Education and understanding eliminated the need for God as an excuse for being struck by lightning. Superstition feeds that obsolete need.

A Greek mathematician, Eratosthenes, calculated the diameter of the Earth around 240BC, so the ancients certainly had the knowledge and the intelligence to use that knowledge. But that does not mean that everything they believed should be taken as gospel. They were just as easy to manipulate and mislead as modern humans.

Certainly people can believe that God resides within them. There is no one who can prove them wrong. But if they cannot admit to themselves that this belief is based only on faith and not on evidence they are no better off than some ancient shepherd cowering in his field because a comet hangs in the sky. Maintain your faith if it comforts you. But don't deny reality and don't attempt to force that faith on others.