Do you believe?

[TomOfSweden]

I was talking about the drugs; ex was initially developed for exactly this reason -- to stimulate "joy" as a chemical antidote to depression. Whether or not you agree it should be banned, I think it's fairly clear its led to alot of problems.

Are you seriously making a case against science? There's no system behind happiness. What ever works for you is great. BTW not all drugs where developed in labs. Science wasn't developed into a method until 2620 BC under the rule of Imhoptep in Egypt. All people have since the dawn of man used drugs. This is probably the very first few generations in the entire history of man who aren't chronically off their rockers and doped up. Science have shown that early man where very much devoted to their drugs and being high/drunk.

See, it seems to me you've chosen to disbelieve in anything that isn't proven according to your own understanding (and technically, all scientific 'proofs' are simply not proven wrong, not inherently proven right); an equally close minded point of view that leads to nothing but stagnation. I'm not arguing for any specific religion, and yes, I think faith should be subject to experience (shouldn't everything?) but to state so vehemently that all religion is wrong is just as obtuse and unfounded as stating it's all correct.

That's just the thing isn't it. You're somehow comparing science to religion as they are some parellel belief systems. Science is just one of many systematic methods of finding the truth. Science is undeniable, it's its results you can have opinions about. Religion isn't even in the same ball-game...or sport. If you think scientists are closed minded I suggest you reading up. It's about training your mind to be open minded to the extreme, but also how to avoid wasting your time going down killed off routes. Link

Religions are about accepting a package deal. You get the set of moral codes, supernatural forces and a beach-ball. Science is about refuting all package deals if any of the components don't stack up. We know some of the Bible is arrent nonsense. Why not just accept that the Bible doesn't have all the answers? It might be a nice guide but no more. I can't understand why religious people have a problem with this. The result is that religions are dangerous. The MTV generation are turning to god in increasing numbers. Very bad. I've followed the creationist debate in Kansas. I hope you agree that it's an absolute joke.

[cariad]

I had not really paid much attention to this discussion when it started - but even the first post shows that it should actually be in the vanilla thread - so moving it there, although leaving a re-direct so it does not get lost.

cariad

[cariad]

Returning to the original question Tom, albeit rephrased. Do I believe in the supernatural – the answer is yes. How I understand the supernatural is via my faith.

Why do I believe in the supernatural – because I have seen too many things which can have no physical or psychological explanation. I agree that does not mean that in the future there may not be one found, I am sure turning on a light bulb and the room flooding with light would have been seen as supernatural at one time, and clearly it is not.

I have been told about a number of miracles – are these the proof you refer to? Are they miracles or is there a physical or psychological explanation for them. My personal reaction is always to doubt. Some I am quite sure are a hopeful figment of someone’s imagination, or sometimes an attention seeking behaviour. Some fall into a grey area, the person concerned is emotionally stable etc etc but there could be a non-supernatural explanation. There is also a third category, cases were for example someone had scientifically evidenced form of an illness, following healing those signs of illness have gone. It could be a miracle, or it be something we don’t yet understand. It could even be a combination.

Once you open up your mind to the possible presence of a supernatural element to our world there is more and more which needs an alternative explanation. This I guess is where the ‘faith’ bit comes in. I have considered what I have seen and what I have experienced and decided that there is a clear balance of evidence saying that there is a supernatural element to our world. I cannot prove it, but neither can it currently be disproved.

If some scientific proof were to come along which proved that I was wrong, then I would be stupid to ignore it. But that is proof, not a plausible theory.

You mention a scientist and a theologian discussing evolution, and say you would prefer to listen to the scientist. I suspect that shows your natural preference. I would like to listen to people who have learnt both disciplines, and of those who have, there are people who will argue both ways.

I agree with you that theologians who choose to ignore science are going to come up with a limited to answer to many of life’s questions, but I would not wish to view things only through a scientific perspective. To me they are complimentary disciplines, not opposing.

cariad

[TomOfSweden]

Returning to the original question Tom, albeit rephrased. Do I believe in the supernatural – the answer is yes. How I understand the supernatural is via my faith.

Why do I believe in the supernatural – because I have seen too many things which can have no physical or psychological explanation. I agree that does not mean that in the future there may not be one found, I am sure turning on a light bulb and the room flooding with light would have been seen as supernatural at one time, and clearly it is not.

I have been told about a number of miracles – are these the proof you refer to? Are they miracles or is there a physical or psychological explanation for them. My personal reaction is always to doubt. Some I am quite sure are a hopeful figment of someone’s imagination, or sometimes an attention seeking behaviour. Some fall into a grey area, the person concerned is emotionally stable etc etc but there could be a non-supernatural explanation. There is also a third category, cases were for example someone had scientifically evidenced form of an illness, following healing those signs of illness have gone. It could be a miracle, or it be something we don’t yet understand. It could even be a combination.

Once you open up your mind to the possible presence of a supernatural element to our world there is more and more which needs an alternative explanation. This I guess is where the ‘faith’ bit comes in. I have considered what I have seen and what I have experienced and decided that there is a clear balance of evidence saying that there is a supernatural element to our world. I cannot prove it, but neither can it currently be disproved.

I hope this makes sense to somebody because you lost me. Not being able to disprove the existance of god or anything supernatural is not proof of anything. We can similarly not disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster either, and nobody takes them seriously. Nobody. Their case is just as good as any other supernatural belief.

If some scientific proof were to come along which proved that I was wrong, then I would be stupid to ignore it. But that is proof, not a plausible theory.

The Bible has flaws. Science proves it. Creationism did not take place as described in the Bible. But most Christians only believe in selected parts anyway so never mind that.

You mention a scientist and a theologian discussing evolution, and say you would prefer to listen to the scientist. I suspect that shows your natural preference. I would like to listen to people who have learnt both disciplines, and of those who have, there are people who will argue both ways.

I agree with you that theologians who choose to ignore science are going to come up with a limited to answer to many of life’s questions, but I would not wish to view things only through a scientific perspective. To me they are complimentary disciplines, not opposing.

I didn't say I'd "prefer" to listen to the scientist. What I said was that the scientist can massacre all theories floated by the theologan because he doesn't have a chance. He doesn't have the training to meet the scientists arguments. So priests just don't. Instead they use logical head-games that shouldn't make sense to anybody, (and probably don't because I doubt religious people really listen). It's so extremly frustrating to see it happen, time and time again. The priests arguments can always be killed off one by one, if picked apart by a pro. And scientists are the pro's here.

Theology as a subject that deals more about psychology and sociology than the laws of nature. It's not really their branch to discuss it as a subject. They can only say what the various religious texts say on it. They don't have the training to meet arguments found outside of the box. It's both cruel to the theologan and to the scientist. It's like having a a mathematitian race against Carl Lewis at his peak. Even if the mathematitian will beat Carl Lewis at maths he'll still lose the race.

Try aplying the scientific method to Christianity. Any of the supernatural tenets will run into trouble at once. Most major religions and Science is today very much in oposition to each other.

[cariad]

Bowing, hopefully gracefully, out of the exchange with Tom.

Having exchanged views and I think proven that we will never see eye to eye on this, there is little to be gained by continuing and making this a monotonous thread

Tom, I would love to explore some of the points futher in PM's please let me know if you are interested. I suspect however that it is a discussion which would hold little interest beyond ourselves.

cariad

[TomOfSweden]

Bowing, hopefully gracefully, out of the exchange with Tom.

Having exchanged views and I think proven that we will never see eye to eye on this, there is little to be gained by continuing. Tom, if you would like to explore any of the points which either of us have made in more detail in PM's I would enjoy doing so.

cariad

he he. Just my thought. In real life I'm a very private and discrete person when it comes to my philosophy and political views so I can get a bit carried away on the Internet. I recomend you reading Kirkegaard. A devout christian and a philosopher who did his best to make a case for christianity and the existance of god. If you aply the things I've said here I think it'll give you plenty to think about. He is without a doubt one of the most intelligent people and greatest philosophers who ever lived.

I'm not sure we can explore it further. I am in no position to make any judgement about your supernatural experiences even if you would tell me about them.

I'll just say this. Good luck with being christian. I hope it makes you happy.

[violetgem]

Thanks all for sharing, I didn’t mean for it to turn into a discussion about Religion but I understand why Religion got incorporated. So I am going to just sit back and take in the conversations/discussions and see if a good ghost story pops up.

[cariad]

Thanks all for sharing, I didn’t mean for it to turn into a discussion about Religion but I understand why Religion got incorporated. So I am going to just sit back and take in the conversations/discussions and see if a good ghost story pops up.

What do you have against bad ghosts?

cariad

[violetgem]

What do you have against bad ghosts?

cariad

Hmmm, now isn't bad sometimes good.... is that how it goes???

[dzire2pleeze]

How about just a good ghost violetgem????

[ElectricBadger]

What do you have against bad ghosts?

I think Scooby Doo caught all of those, though, and the few left to run free in the wild were the victims of arctic oil drilling.

[master 327-834-200]

No.

[violetgem]

Halloween is getting really really close!! Anymore ghost stories/encounters they would like to share!!!! All the posts before have been freaking me out in a good way where shivers go down my spine and I get goose bumps!! Thank you to those who have shared their experiences!!!!

[hugsnkisses]

I believe in ghosts/spirits/etc... actually a rather firm belief at this point too. For years I didn't care or didn't know or wanted proof before I really believed in something. This past year or two has taken me on a journey where I now believe in things without having scientific explanations.... God, spirits, etc... I can't say I have specific stories to share, but I do have rather strong feelings on the topic. I am fascinated with the stories posted here And like some other people said, if you believe in it too, cool.. if not, no big deal... we're all adults here (most of the time!) and everyone has a right to choose what and what not to believe in..

[Tojo]

I was the world's biggest skeptic until I lived in an old hotel more than 100 years old.

I was in my bedroom with a mate on a sunny afternoon, when I was around 19 years old. We heard footsteps upstairs, walking up the passageway- as plain as day. Shot out & could immediately see the only open door- the whole building was deadlocked otherwise, with bars on the windows.

We flew up the stairs determined to catch the intruder- there was no one there.

I had a room upstairs afterwards, once or twice I heard footsteps going up the passageway at night. They stopped outside the door of my room, then moved away. Upon opening the door, there was no one there.

I only stayed there a few weeks at a time, it was owned by my parents, but since then I've sure been a believer.

Tojo

[slaveangel{HM}]

Yes, I believe in them.

[violetgem]

wow Tojo!! I would have been so freakin scared!!!