A message to our Leadership in America

[Bren122]

Yes, it is. Life has changed only in the fact that technology has changed it. Basic principles remain the same.

Technology brings about changes in human attitudes; the widespread use of the clock made us more concerned with the passage of time. The invention of the deep sowing plough and the shoulder yoke changed the way we used agriculture; similarly the development of fertilisers and pesticides. this is not just a way of doing things but a way of thinking about things; something that we all seem to have forgotten in the last century.
The constitution has a procedure for its own amendment precisely because it was seen that what was known and thought necessary in the 18th century might be very different in the 21st century.

[DuncanONeil]

The constitution has a procedure for its own amendment precisely because it was seen that what was known and thought necessary in the 18th century might be very different in the 21st century.

True! But that does not alter the fact that rights are being created by a liberal reading of sections of the document that are not there, because they are not, not there. That violates Amendment Ten.

[Bren122]

True! But that does not alter the fact that rights are being created by a liberal reading of sections of the document that are not there, because they are not, not there. That violates Amendment Ten.

And the Right has been just as guilty of the same notions. Equal but Separate, et al are only justifiable by ignoring major sections of the constitution and selectively rendering other sections. it is unlikely that those who drew up the constitution, had they been aware of the changes in weapons technology to come, would approve of the idea that the average citizen be allowed access to ammunition known colloquially as cop-killer bullets. or a grenade launcher or a landmine. The 2nd amendment was inspired by the English notion of militia, which grew out of the Civil War and the Glorious Revolution, not an individual's free for all collection of weapons. the way the Yeomanry of the Napoleonic and Revolutionary periods operated was essentially how the 2nd Amendment was envisaged to operate.

the fact is that there is a strong anti-intellectualism about the modern right that has effectively limited its opposition to these liberal uses of the constitution. too often the opposition to these progressive positions have been defined by the far right in total denial of a need for change. the moderates need to take a cue from the moderate left and stop trying to mollify the extremists on every issue and recapture the idea that being conservative is not the same as being anti-progress.

[DuncanONeil]

Look I know that this is a somewhat unique issue to the US. But the right in the Second Amendment does not accrue to militia but to the people. It is clear in that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The purpose of the Amendment is not have an armed militia available for defense of the nation but to provide a means, should it become necessary to defend the nation from the Government.
The left's "progressive" positions are often issues that are completely without the scope of this nations Constitutional role for its Government.

And the Right has been just as guilty of the same notions. Equal but Separate, et al are only justifiable by ignoring major sections of the constitution and selectively rendering other sections. it is unlikely that those who drew up the constitution, had they been aware of the changes in weapons technology to come, would approve of the idea that the average citizen be allowed access to ammunition known colloquially as cop-killer bullets. or a grenade launcher or a landmine. The 2nd amendment was inspired by the English notion of militia, which grew out of the Civil War and the Glorious Revolution, not an individual's free for all collection of weapons. the way the Yeomanry of the Napoleonic and Revolutionary periods operated was essentially how the 2nd Amendment was envisaged to operate.

the fact is that there is a strong anti-intellectualism about the modern right that has effectively limited its opposition to these liberal uses of the constitution. too often the opposition to these progressive positions have been defined by the far right in total denial of a need for change. the moderates need to take a cue from the moderate left and stop trying to mollify the extremists on every issue and recapture the idea that being conservative is not the same as being anti-progress.

[steelish]

The constitution has a procedure for its own amendment precisely because it was seen that what was known and thought necessary in the 18th century might be very different in the 21st century.

Wrong. You know why the Constitution will never be obsolete? Because it is about providing freedom from abuse by those in authority. Anyone who says the American Constitution is obsolete just because social and economic conditions have changed does not understand the real genius of the Constitution. It was designed to control something which HAS NOT CHANGED AND WILL NOT CHANGE - NAMELY, HUMAN NATURE.

[MMI]

I am in no doubt the British authorities allow [ethnic tribunals] to be set up within those communities. But they have no legal standing in the UK, and all findings must be presented to a British court to have the final say.

Of course they have no legal standing per se, but if both parties have agreed to be bound by the tribunal's decision, the courts will not disturb it. Approval by the courts is unnecessary.

I would like to point out that it has not stopped honour killings

It woudn't, would it? The tribunals do not order honour killings where they feel a girl has disgraced her family. And I would suggest that in the countries where honour killings are accepted by custom, they are still illegal in the countries of origin.

The UK is a very racially tolerant country ...

Then let us not fall into the trap of believing racist propaganda purveyed by the nazi parties on the right, or swallowing tall stories spread in pub arguments by readers of the gutter press. Let us live up to our honourable and noble reputation of providing a safe haven for people of all persuasions and colours; and let us also live up to our promises to the people whose national histories are so closely linked to ours, and who made this country as great as it once was by treating them like real people - like the British citizens they are or aspire to be.

... Sharia Law has no minimum, what is said is done and sometimes to the extreme, it has no place in the civilised world.

Islamic law constitutes the third most influential legal system in the world, after Civil Law and Common Law. What do you mean, it has no place in the civilised world?

Sharia encompasses much more than a legal system, but all aspects of moslem life, including economic matters, family matters, politics and so on and it is founded on justice and faith, not hate, power and bloodlust. OK, some of the penalties seem harsh, but how far removed are they from our own punioshments? When did we abandon judicial torture ... the USA practiced it under the previous regime. What about the death penalty? The USA still practices that. What about amputations? Well, England practiced dismemberment in mediaeval times for certain crimes. There's no getting away with it: Western law was once as cruel as Sharia law can be.

Now look at the countries where Sharia law is praccticed in its strictest forms. Can you see any resemblence to the underdeveloped nations of Europe in centuries past?

The crimes are different maybe, but that's due to different societies having different moral values. Who's to say which is the better these days?

... or are sweeping assumptions and statements the sole province of the left?

Works for me ...

... [the American Constitution] ... was designed to control something which HAS NOT CHANGED AND WILL NOT CHANGE - NAMELY, HUMAN NATURE.

But, of course, the Constitution can be changed, or even erased, if enough Americans will it. The list of amendments already enacted demonsrate this, and denying it is futile

[Bren122]

Wrong. You know why the Constitution will never be obsolete? Because it is about providing freedom from abuse by those in authority. Anyone who says the American Constitution is obsolete just because social and economic conditions have changed does not understand the real genius of the Constitution. It was designed to control something which HAS NOT CHANGED AND WILL NOT CHANGE - NAMELY, HUMAN NATURE.

i never said it was obsolete.
human nature has changed- or do you still think it is morally wrong for women to vote? morally right for children as young as six to work down mines or in textile mills or for negroes to be slaves?
once upon a time the working day was from sun-up to sun-down; the distribution of tolling clocks changed that and people began to think of terms of a fair day's work throughout the year. it was a fundamental shift in the way people thought about time and their obligations as defined by time. it is no coincedence that many modern sports trace their revival or invention to games first played soon after the proliferation of clocks in Europe- suddenly there was 'time' for recreation.
every year lately we are presented with technologies that change the fundamental nature of our existence.
the beauty of the constitution is not that it never changes but that it is adjustable enough that new technologies that change our understanding of our rights do not change our access to those rights.

[steelish]

i never said it was obsolete.
human nature has changed- or do you still think it is morally wrong for women to vote? morally right for children as young as six to work down mines or in textile mills or for negroes to be slaves?

Ah, but Amendments that gave women the right to vote and gave African Americans equal rights were not changes in human nature. They were an re-affirmation of God's Law, which is what our Constitution is based upon.

once upon a time the working day was from sun-up to sun-down; the distribution of tolling clocks changed that and people began to think of terms of a fair day's work throughout the year. it was a fundamental shift in the way people thought about time and their obligations as defined by time. it is no coincedence that many modern sports trace their revival or invention to games first played soon after the proliferation of clocks in Europe- suddenly there was 'time' for recreation.
every year lately we are presented with technologies that change the fundamental nature of our existence.
the beauty of the constitution is not that it never changes but that it is adjustable enough that new technologies that change our understanding of our rights do not change our access to those rights.

The proliferation of clocks did not change the work day for many American workers. Farmers, loggers, miners, etc. still worked sunup to sundown. And most modern sports came about as a result of economics. Gambling, to be exact. It was another way for people to make money.

[Thorne]

Ah, but Amendments that gave women the right to vote and gave African Americans equal rights were not changes in human nature. They were an re-affirmation of God's Law, which is what our Constitution is based upon.

Ah, but that's not what God's Law is all about, is it. God's law holds women to be not much better than property, and slavery to be justified. It is MORAL law that gives women and former slaves equal rights.

[DuncanONeil]

None of that has changed "human nature"!

i never said it was obsolete.
human nature has changed- or do you still think it is morally wrong for women to vote? morally right for children as young as six to work down mines or in textile mills or for negroes to be slaves?
once upon a time the working day was from sun-up to sun-down; the distribution of tolling clocks changed that and people began to think of terms of a fair day's work throughout the year. it was a fundamental shift in the way people thought about time and their obligations as defined by time. it is no coincedence that many modern sports trace their revival or invention to games first played soon after the proliferation of clocks in Europe- suddenly there was 'time' for recreation.
every year lately we are presented with technologies that change the fundamental nature of our existence.
the beauty of the constitution is not that it never changes but that it is adjustable enough that new technologies that change our understanding of our rights do not change our access to those rights.