Lost Data

[DuncanONeil]

[QUOTE=Thorne;837911]

If that were true then Satan would be God's equal, able to create something from nothing.

The way I learned it was that Satan, or Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God. But with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil, yet he created him anyway. Therefore, either God created evil, or he is not all knowing, or he is unable to stop what has been preordained. In any of these cases he fails the test for God (Jehovah).

"Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God."
See! As I said Satan created himself.
"with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil," I take it then that you are of the opinion that God must not allow free will? Omniscience is not so much knowledge of will happen. But of all of the courses of results for all decision points.

[Thorne]

I take it then that you are of the opinion that God must not allow free will?

Not exactly. It's my opinion that the idea of God, as defined in the Bible, is incompatible with the idea of free will.

Omniscience is not so much knowledge of will happen. But of all of the courses of results for all decision points.

That's one definition, certainly, but not the one which is taught in the Biblical version of God. Or at least the why I was taught it. And much depends on which specific religion you are talking about. Since none can actually know anything real about their god, they make up their own definitions of what that god is, what he can do and why he does it. And when society grow beyond those definitions, why, they change the definitions!

[DuncanONeil]

Not exactly. It's my opinion that the idea of God, as defined in the Bible, is incompatible with the idea of free will.

Sorry I can not see such a restrictive description. Free will existed and is mention since the Garden.

That's one definition, certainly, but not the one which is taught in the Biblical version of God. Or at least the why I was taught it. And much depends on which specific religion you are talking about. Since none can actually know anything real about their god, they make up their own definitions of what that god is, what he can do and why he does it. And when society grow beyond those definitions, why, they change the definitions!

I will be honest, I do not remember the exact language of the lessons I received. Yet the concept of an All Knowing, All Powerful" God does not alter the description of knowing the result of all different actions by any of the creations. Now that you made me think thjat far back I do have a vague recollection of such a comment being made eithe by the nuns in elementary or priests in High School.

[Thorne]

Sorry I can not see such a restrictive description. Free will existed and is mention since the Garden.
I'm aware that it's mentioned. I just don't agree that it's possible with the biblical interpretation of God, as I remember my lessons.
I will be honest, I do not remember the exact language of the lessons I received. Yet the concept of an All Knowing, All Powerful" God does not alter the description of knowing the result of all different actions by any of the creations. Now that you made me think thjat far back I do have a vague recollection of such a comment being made eithe by the nuns in elementary or priests in High School.

Yeah, that's part of my problem. I've spent so many years gratefully forgetting those lessons it's hard to dredge them up again.

[DuncanONeil]

Yeah, that's part of my problem. I've spent so many years gratefully forgetting those lessons it's hard to dredge them up again.

What is it about the "bibical interpretation of God that leads you to a decision that there is no free will and that no God?

[Thorne]

What is it about the "bibical interpretation of God that leads you to a decision that there is no free will and that no God?

The Biblical interpretation, as I understand it, says that God knew, even before creation, everything that would occur after creation, right up to the end of the universe. That implies that the future is fixed, and therefore free will is an illusion. This is the way I was taught, and one of the things which pushed me away from the Catholic Church was their refusal to answer questions like this. It was always a case of "taking it on faith", which I found I could not do.