Freedom of Religion ... unless that is; you are a Muslim.

[Lion]

Getting back to the Islamic centre, I'm disappointed. Equating all Muslims to the ones that killed people is like equating Hitler to Catholics or KKK to all the whites of America. For the last 9 years, a lot of right wing commentators and politicians have repeatedly claimed that the moderate muslims are remaining quiet while the fanatical ones are doing all the talking. Fact is that barely anyone reports what moderate muslims do, it just doesn't make good news. No one is going to report the fact that the group that a few of my friends were in raised enough money to give away free food to poorer neighbourhoods, or that there have been community outreach programs or that there are muslim vets out there that served their country with distinction. One muslim goes on a rampage, and it's terrorism. One decides to act like a fucking douchewad and everyone in the entire religion is now a suspect.

It is highly offensive to me, as a Muslim to hear how people say the Islamic community centre is a slap in the face to those who died. To those who claim that, they either have never bothered finding out if there is a distinction between murderers and the rest of us, and brand us all under one assumption. If it was a YMCA, would there be an uproar? And what truely disgusts me is that people with the resources to find out more fail to do so, or out of sheer and willing ignorance spew out false hatred and accusations. Newt Gringrich comes to mind. How he is respected is beyond me.

[Thorne]

Well said, Lion. In principal, at least, I agree with what you've said. People shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush. We are all individuals, each capable of making our own decisions.

Truth be told, though, it's not only moderate Muslims who are ignored. Almost anyone who does something good, something for the community, is relegated to the back pages of the news, or 4 in the morning television. Good news doesn't sell.

The other problem as I see it, both among Muslims and among Catholics, is the profound silence coming from the moderate ranks. Why aren't the moderate Muslims up in arms about the death sentence for a woman convicted based solely upon the whim of a Sharia Judge? Why aren't moderate Muslims protesting the virtual enslavement of women? Why aren't Catholics howling at the Vatican over pedophile priests? Why aren't they protesting the excommunication of those who saved the life of a 9 year old rape victim while embracing her rapist?

The Islamic center in New York should not be prevented from being built, and it should be embraced by all Americans, of whatever creed, as a sign of peace. But this country was badly wounded, emotionally, by the events of 9-11. There is still a lot of anger, and a lot of fear. More rational discourse by moderate Muslims, more condemnation of the fanatics by the moderates, would go a long way towards healing those wounds.

[MMI]

The other problem ... is the profound silence coming from the moderate ranks.

... more condemnation of the fanatics by the moderates, would go a long way towards healing those wounds.

Those words bear repeating:

The other problem ... is the profound silence coming from the moderate ranks.

... more condemnation of the fanatics by the moderates, would go a long way towards healing those wounds.

It does, however, call for a certain amount of bravery for moderates to step forward and stand out against the fanatics: sometimes an extraordinary amount of bravery. They risk public notice - which many silent moderates want to avoid, or it sometimes means being ostracised by the community you belong to. And, of course, where fanatics are involved, it sometimes means risking life or limb. It's understandable why moderates are frequently conspicuous by their absence, but that's not to justify their reluctance to stand up for their beliefs in the face of their "co-religionists".

[Thorne]

Those words bear repeating:

Thank you. Nice to know that once in a while I make sense. Hard to believe, I know.

It does, however, call for a certain amount of bravery for moderates to step forward and stand out against the fanatics: sometimes an extraordinary amount of bravery. They risk public notice - which many silent moderates want to avoid, or it sometimes means being ostracised by the community you belong to. And, of course, where fanatics are involved, it sometimes means risking life or limb. It's understandable why moderates are frequently conspicuous by their absence, but that's not to justify their reluctance to stand up for their beliefs in the face of their "co-religionists".

Yes, I do understand this aspect of it, too. One of the reasons why I sometimes feel like advocating, "Do unto others before they do unto you." Sometimes the only way to fight the fanatics is on their own terms. And unfortunately, many times those terms involve death. This seems to be especially prevalent in Islam, where a relative handful of insane clerics seem to want to drag their people back into the Middle Ages. And there are always those who will follow the insane, if for no other reason than that it gives them an excuse to do things they would like to do anyway, without having to worry about their consciences. I wish I knew a better solution than, "Kill them all!" That only puts me on their level.

[DuncanONeil]

Those words bear repeating:



It does, however, call for a certain amount of bravery for moderates to step forward and stand out against the fanatics: sometimes an extraordinary amount of bravery. They risk public notice - which many silent moderates want to avoid, or it sometimes means being ostracised by the community you belong to. And, of course, where fanatics are involved, it sometimes means risking life or limb. It's understandable why moderates are frequently conspicuous by their absence, but that's not to justify their reluctance to stand up for their beliefs in the face of their "co-religionists".

I have actually seen some, I guess they qualify, moderate Muslims speaking out - mostly about the NYC mosque - But strangely they were all from Canada!

[Lion]

The other problem as I see it, both among Muslims and among Catholics, is the profound silence coming from the moderate ranks. Why aren't the moderate Muslims up in arms about the death sentence for a woman convicted based solely upon the whim of a Sharia Judge? Why aren't moderate Muslims protesting the virtual enslavement of women? Why aren't Catholics howling at the Vatican over pedophile priests? Why aren't they protesting the excommunication of those who saved the life of a 9 year old rape victim while embracing her rapist?

Thing is they/we are! Every time something like this happens, from the mosques to different Islamic organizations, the moderates are angry and increadibly vocal about all of this. The woman in Iran who has been sentenced to death for supposed adultry, people here are petitioning the Iranian embassy in Ottawa, the asshole Manhattan bomber who didn't detonate (thankfully) has been lambasted by everyone I know to be muslim. I can't speak for muslims in the east, but here, we're sick of bad news. Every imam has denounced all these idiotic actions in many sermons. As for the enslavement of women, you should see the activism that muslims are trying to do to rectify that. From fundraising for awareness and education for girls, there has been a push to address that as well.

Like I said, there is no coverage of all the steps muslims have taken to fighting all of this stuff. If there is no media outlet willing to do a segment (because the Clinton wedding and Lohan's incarceration was prime news) no one is going to find out.

[Thorne]

Like I said, there is no coverage of all the steps muslims have taken to fighting all of this stuff. If there is no media outlet willing to do a segment (because the Clinton wedding and Lohan's incarceration was prime news) no one is going to find out.

Yeah, I can sympathize with that. I just don't know HOW I would have survived if I'd had to listen to even ONE more news report of the good things Muslims are doing and so MISSED learning all about Chelsea and Lindsay! </sarcasm>

[DuncanONeil]

This is really the point those outside the community are trying to make. Decrying the bad acts of a few among themselves does little for the community at large. Such denunciations need to be outside of partisan services to be of real value to Muslim neighbors.

As can be seen by some of the shenanigans around the nation secrecy is not an ally in this matter.

Thing is they/we are! Every time something like this happens, from the mosques to different Islamic organizations, the moderates are angry and increadibly vocal about all of this. The woman in Iran who has been sentenced to death for supposed adultry, people here are petitioning the Iranian embassy in Ottawa, the asshole Manhattan bomber who didn't detonate (thankfully) has been lambasted by everyone I know to be muslim. I can't speak for muslims in the east, but here, we're sick of bad news. Every imam has denounced all these idiotic actions in many sermons. As for the enslavement of women, you should see the activism that muslims are trying to do to rectify that. From fundraising for awareness and education for girls, there has been a push to address that as well.

Like I said, there is no coverage of all the steps muslims have taken to fighting all of this stuff. If there is no media outlet willing to do a segment (because the Clinton wedding and Lohan's incarceration was prime news) no one is going to find out.

[DuncanONeil]

In reality no one is suggesting it SHOULD NOT be built only dithering over the location.

Well said, Lion. In principal, at least, I agree with what you've said. People shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush. We are all individuals, each capable of making our own decisions.

Truth be told, though, it's not only moderate Muslims who are ignored. Almost anyone who does something good, something for the community, is relegated to the back pages of the news, or 4 in the morning television. Good news doesn't sell.

The other problem as I see it, both among Muslims and among Catholics, is the profound silence coming from the moderate ranks. Why aren't the moderate Muslims up in arms about the death sentence for a woman convicted based solely upon the whim of a Sharia Judge? Why aren't moderate Muslims protesting the virtual enslavement of women? Why aren't Catholics howling at the Vatican over pedophile priests? Why aren't they protesting the excommunication of those who saved the life of a 9 year old rape victim while embracing her rapist?

The Islamic center in New York should not be prevented from being built, and it should be embraced by all Americans, of whatever creed, as a sign of peace. But this country was badly wounded, emotionally, by the events of 9-11. There is still a lot of anger, and a lot of fear. More rational discourse by moderate Muslims, more condemnation of the fanatics by the moderates, would go a long way towards healing those wounds.

[DuncanONeil]

I must say that it is possible that you misunderstand "repeatedly claimed that the moderate muslims are remaining quiet". You referred to Hitler. Did the Christians that disagreed with keep quite let him go his own way or did they denounce him?
The issue is that the doers of good in the Muslim faith do not make a point of denouncing those that claim to be of the faith are doing wrong. Nor are there any calls for them to cease their "evil" ways.

This is what is missing from the non-fanatical members of the Muslim faith. Here in the US we have a group that is soundly denounced for their misguided faith the; Westboro Baptist Church. Now they have a right to believe as they do but that right does not extend to imposing that belief of those that do not, by force. True they only use intimidation but intimidation is a form of force.

Getting back to the Islamic centre, I'm disappointed. Equating all Muslims to the ones that killed people is like equating Hitler to Catholics or KKK to all the whites of America. For the last 9 years, a lot of right wing commentators and politicians have repeatedly claimed that the moderate muslims are remaining quiet while the fanatical ones are doing all the talking. Fact is that barely anyone reports what moderate muslims do, it just doesn't make good news. No one is going to report the fact that the group that a few of my friends were in raised enough money to give away free food to poorer neighbourhoods, or that there have been community outreach programs or that there are muslim vets out there that served their country with distinction. One muslim goes on a rampage, and it's terrorism. One decides to act like a fucking douchewad and everyone in the entire religion is now a suspect.

It is highly offensive to me, as a Muslim to hear how people say the Islamic community centre is a slap in the face to those who died. To those who claim that, they either have never bothered finding out if there is a distinction between murderers and the rest of us, and brand us all under one assumption. If it was a YMCA, would there be an uproar? And what truely disgusts me is that people with the resources to find out more fail to do so, or out of sheer and willing ignorance spew out false hatred and accusations. Newt Gringrich comes to mind. How he is respected is beyond me.