U.s. Founding fathers

[Thorne]

If those leprechauns are what creates your sense of humanity and decency, then go for it.

No, what creates my sense of humanity and decency is my inborn sense of humanity and decency. I believe in the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I allowed myself to behave inhumanely towards others then, in all honesty, I would have to admit that it was all right for them to behave inhumanely towards me. The idea that morality comes from some super-faerie has been thoroughly falsified.

I do, however, believe there is a greater force at work; whether it is nature itself or God.

That is faith, a personal thing, and everyone is entitled to have their beliefs. That does not necessarily mean that what you believe in is true for anyone but you.

That being said, I do not find the Pledge of Allegiance to be offensive. Simply saying it does not make me a bad person. Nor does it make the person standing next to me a bad person.

I'm not implying that it does. And I don't find it offensive either. I just find the idea of pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth to be rather silly.

[steelish]

I'm not implying that it does. And I don't find it offensive either. I just find the idea of pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth to be rather silly.

The Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States of America...NOT a piece of cloth. The "piece of cloth" is symbolic of the U.S.

[Thorne]

The Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States of America...NOT a piece of cloth. The "piece of cloth" is symbolic of the U.S.

Actually it's to both. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands...."

And I agree, it is a symbol. An effigy. It's not a holy relic, it's a piece of cloth. It can have many meanings to many different people. To a soldier in battle it may be a sign of pride and courage. To a frightened tourist overseas it can be a sign of safety and acceptance. To an enemy soldier it is a sign of evil and hatred. But regardless, it is still just a piece of cloth, and I do not owe it any allegiance. To the nation, yes. To the leaders, perhaps, if they have earned it. (Not so much, lately.) But to the flag? Sorry, no.

[steelish]

Actually it's to both. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands...."

And I agree, it is a symbol. An effigy. It's not a holy relic, it's a piece of cloth. It can have many meanings to many different people. To a soldier in battle it may be a sign of pride and courage. To a frightened tourist overseas it can be a sign of safety and acceptance. To an enemy soldier it is a sign of evil and hatred. But regardless, it is still just a piece of cloth, and I do not owe it any allegiance. To the nation, yes. To the leaders, perhaps, if they have earned it. (Not so much, lately.) But to the flag? Sorry, no.

But you just admitted the flag is a symbol (and not a holy symbol). A symbol of safety and acceptance. A symbol of pride and courage. A symbol (to the enemy) of evil and hatred. But you do not say what it symbolizes to you. What does it symbolize that generates such apathy?

[Thorne]

But you just admitted the flag is a symbol (and not a holy symbol). A symbol of safety and acceptance. A symbol of pride and courage. A symbol (to the enemy) of evil and hatred. But you do not say what it symbolizes to you. What does it symbolize that generates such apathy?

Apathy? About my country? I think not. But I'll answer your question.

To me the flag symbolizes:
a people who rose up against tyranny to establish a new nation, where ALL men (and women) could be free.
a divided people who fought, brother against brother in a horrid war, but who eventually managed to triumph and prove, once and for all that ALL people are free.
a nation which, not once but twice, sent her sons around the world to fight tyranny and oppression and help her allies and neighbors, sending millions of men into England, France, North Africa, Italy, much of the Pacific, and on and on, without even THINKING of conquering those nations for her own.
a nation which, though caught by surprise, managed to get into the space race and place men on the moon! On the MOON, people! An alien world, even though it is right next door, and ONLY Americans have planted their flag. And yet, we do NOT claim it for our own!
a nation which welcomed millions of immigrants to her shores, including my great-grandparents, and made free peoples of them all.
but now, she is a nation in trouble, beset by greedy politicians and corporations, whose very laws are being trampled and demolished by drug dealers and other criminals.
a nation on the brink of collapse due to the destruction of her education system, once among the best in the world.
a nation under attack, from without and within, trying to be defended by a people who are more afraid of giving offense than in doing what is right.
a nation which still, despite more than 200 years of trying, can't seem to understand that ALL people, regardless of race, creed, color, or sexual orientation, have the same rights!

No, steelish. I am not apathetic. I am just plain scared. Because I don't think my nation can long survive the political, religious and racial assaults upon her and her people. Because our government is no longer of the people, by the people, for the people, but is now against the people.

That is what the flag symbolizes to me. Yet it is still only a piece of cloth, nothing more. Worth a few dollars in the local convenience store. It is a nation, a people, to whom I owe my allegiance, not a flag.

[steelish]

Apathy? About my country? I think not. But I'll answer your question.

To me the flag symbolizes:
a people who rose up against tyranny to establish a new nation, where ALL men (and women) could be free.
a divided people who fought, brother against brother in a horrid war, but who eventually managed to triumph and prove, once and for all that ALL people are free.
a nation which, not once but twice, sent her sons around the world to fight tyranny and oppression and help her allies and neighbors, sending millions of men into England, France, North Africa, Italy, much of the Pacific, and on and on, without even THINKING of conquering those nations for her own.
a nation which, though caught by surprise, managed to get into the space race and place men on the moon! On the MOON, people! An alien world, even though it is right next door, and ONLY Americans have planted their flag. And yet, we do NOT claim it for our own!
a nation which welcomed millions of immigrants to her shores, including my great-grandparents, and made free peoples of them all.
but now, she is a nation in trouble, beset by greedy politicians and corporations, whose very laws are being trampled and demolished by drug dealers and other criminals.
a nation on the brink of collapse due to the destruction of her education system, once among the best in the world.
a nation under attack, from without and within, trying to be defended by a people who are more afraid of giving offense than in doing what is right.
a nation which still, despite more than 200 years of trying, can't seem to understand that ALL people, regardless of race, creed, color, or sexual orientation, have the same rights!

That is what the flag symbolizes to me. Yet it is still only a piece of cloth, nothing more. Worth a few dollars in the local convenience store. It is a nation, a people, to whom I owe my allegiance, not a flag.

It symbolizes all that to you, yet you still think of it as just a piece of cloth. A piece of cloth no different from your socks...or the dishcloth.

No, steelish. I am not apathetic. I am just plain scared. Because I don't think my nation can long survive the political, religious and racial assaults upon her and her people. Because our government is no longer of the people, by the people, for the people, but is now against the people.

I too, feel that same fear. How can any sane American NOT feel that fear? The horrible thing is the political, religious and racial assaults are coming from within...if they were being brought upon us by another country, America would most definitely band together and fight the assault. It's her own people doing the harm. But it's not the fault of religion. It's not the fault of politics. It's not the fault of race. It's the fault of the people themselves who use those things as weapons. Only by reaching out to one another with decent human kindness in our souls can we overcome this insanity.

[Thorne]

It symbolizes all that to you, yet you still think of it as just a piece of cloth. A piece of cloth no different from your socks...or the dishcloth.

Of course. As I said, it's not as if there's only one in the world. If someone trashes my flag I can buy another one this afternoon. No big deal.

But it's not the fault of religion. It's not the fault of politics. It's not the fault of race. It's the fault of the people themselves who use those things as weapons.

But don't you see? It's the religious groups, the political parties, who separate people and make them see opponents with fear. Christians against Muslims. Muslims against Jews. Democrats against Republicans. ALL such groups, through their leaders, spout hatred and fear, setting one group against another, instead of sitting down and working through our differences. Listen to the lies and hatred vomited up by political commentors, from both sides. Listen to the hatred form the religious groups regarding gays. Yes, it's the people who put out the hate, but so many of them are prompted to do so by their leaders, who use religion and/or politics to justify their comments.

Only by reaching out to one another with decent human kindness in our souls can we overcome this insanity.

I can get behind this sentiment. Sadly, decent human kindness seems to be out of style in America today.

[steelish]

Actually it's to both. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands...."

Why didn't you embolden and to the Republic for which it stands? That is quite important.

[Thorne]

Why didn't you embolden and to the Republic for which it stands? That is quite important.

It's important, but wasn't the point I was trying to make.